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"We’ve always been focused on energy solutions to our customers. Our history goes back 30 years as an energy service provider. In the early days it was all about creating efficient building system designs using the latest technologies. That was fundamental because to this day our core value does include providing innovative solutions. Innovative solutions are both our design and application of technology for the betterment of our customers.”
—Richard Davis
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Episode 158 is a conversation with Richard Davis from Limbach Holdings.
Episode 158 features Richard Davis from Limbach Holdings and is our 7th episode in the Case Study series looking at real-life, large-scale deployments of smart building technologies. These are not marketing fluff stories, these are lessons from leaders that others can put into use in their smart buildings programs. This conversation explores how Limbach Holdings is integrating FDD and energy management softwares into their HVAC and plumbing services. Enjoy!
You can find Richard on LinkedIn.
Overview (1:16)
Introduction to Richard Davis (1:45)
What Limbach does (2:29)
Who is the vendor team (3:47)
How many buildings have the install (4:22)
What are the results (5:18)
Why did you start this path (6:00)
What were the worries (7:22)
What were the options for solutions (8:47)
Why did you make the selection you made (10:32)
Main phases to get where you are now (14:03)
The future of the program (17:49)
Who’s on the team (21:50)
Opportunities to take it further (23:25)
Issues this has avoided for customers (24:25)
Lessons learned (27:37)
The coaching process (30:17)
Cyber security challenges (32:40)
Handling different types of buildings (33:52)
What would you tell someone just starting out (35:06)
Music credits: There Is A Reality by Common Tiger—licensed under an Music Vine Limited Pro Standard License ID: S506938-16073.
Note: transcript was created using an imperfect machine learning tool and lightly edited by a human (so you can get the gist). Please forgive errors!
Richard Davis: [00:00:00] We've always been focused on energy solutions to our customers. Our history goes back to 30 years as kind of an energy service provider. In those early days, it was all about creating efficient building system designs using what at the late at that time was latest technology. But that was fundamental because to this day, our core value does include we provide innovative solutions, right?
Innovative solutions are both our design and application of technology for really the betterment of our customers.
James Dice: There are three ways to do that. First, you can join the Nexus Pro Membership. It's our global community of smart building professionals. We have monthly events, paywall deep dive content, and a private chat room, and it's just 35 a month. Second, you can upgrade from the Pro Membership to our courses offering.
It's headlined by our flagship course, the Smart Building Strategist. And we're building a catalog of courses [00:01:00] taught by world leading experts on each topic under the Smart Buildings umbrella. Third, and finally, our marketplace is how we connect leading vendors with buyers looking for their solutions.
The links are below in the show notes. And now let's go on to the podcast.
All right, welcome to the Nexus podcast. This is the latest episode in our series, diving into case studies of real life and large scale deployments of smart building technologies. I emphasize real life because we're not here to create a marketing fluff story. We're here to share lessons from leaders that others can put to use in their smart buildings program.
And today we have a story coming from Limbach Holdings, a mechanical electrical plumbing or MEP contractor with 1, 500 employees and 17 US offices. Um, I have here Richard Davis, the director of product management at Limbach. Richard, can you introduce yourself, please?
Richard Davis: Certainly. So, let's just start with, you might be wondering what exactly a product manager does at a construction and service company.
Um, and [00:02:00] to completely be honest with you, James, I sometimes wonder if I could even write down my own job description. Um, but at its core, my role is to support the evaluation, implementation, and continued success. of our customer facing applications in tech focused services, right? So I need to make sure that the investment and time we've spent on leveraging applications Actually bring value to our customer.
James Dice: And can you talk about Limbach as a whole? For people that haven't heard that name before. What do you guys do besides mechanical, electrical, plumbing? Maybe that's it.
Richard Davis: Yeah, So Limbach as a whole, we've been around since 1901. Alright, so we're fairly old. Um, we are historically a design, build, mechanical contractor.
So, building systems, HVAC, plumbing, electrical and controls. Uh, we also have pivoted to this model of being a... A service provider. We've always done mechanical service in one location or another, but really the focus of the company now is how can we be better at installing systems, but [00:03:00] also maintaining those systems.
So when I say MEP plus C, it's the mechanical systems, plus controls, plus program management, plus anything we think brings value to our customers.
James Dice: Got it, got it. And today we're going to talk about a specific, uh, Deployment here, right? So we're going to talk about, um, you guys basically, and this is my words, you, you feel free to correct me, basically, um, integrating FDD or fault detection diagnostics and energy management sort of software application into your service or providing your customers.
Is that right? That's exactly right. The word of the day is going to be integration. Love it. So let's start with some rapid fire questions about that project to sort of set the context because we're basically doing a case study here. So, um, let's, let's go back and forth pretty quickly. Who's the, the vendor team, the, the software vendor that you're using?
Richard Davis: So look, I was told by my CEO years ago that we don't look for vendors, we look for software partners, right? So I might correct you on that terminology, but our software partner is really [00:04:00] someone we have a strategic relationship with that not only benefits Limbach, selfishly, But also the provider. So to kind of rephrase your questions, our main partner right now for this offering is a provider called Facilio.
And we're leveraging their connected building platforms, which is
James Dice: really the core of what you would call a smart buildings technology offering. And how many buildings have you guys installed this technology product in? Yeah,
Richard Davis: so we're currently installed in around 20 buildings. I'd have to check what the up to date numbers are, but as we expand our offering, there's some things changing that are really going to increase where we install this, which I'm kind of excited about.
James Dice: Got it. And how many square feet? So we are just shy of a million square feet up and running already installed. Um, but
Richard Davis: when I looked at our sales funnel this morning,
James Dice: I think if a lot of these come to light, we'll blow that number out of the water. So you're really scaling this thing up. And when did you start this effort?
Richard Davis: Yeah, so we started this with a few pilot jobs a little over a year ago. We
James Dice: had three key [00:05:00] projects across a very large portfolio,
Richard Davis: um, all of which I'm happy to say didn't renew. So I have a hundred percent renewal rate right now. Uh, but
James Dice: it's been about a year. In the last year, what are the results you've seen?
That could be, um, energy savings. It could be just, um, you know, tasks completed that were recommended by the software. It could be anything. But yeah, what are the results you're seeing and maybe that you're celebrating?
Richard Davis: Yeah, so we have kind of two big deliverables. One, we do a lot of
James Dice: report generation, right?
So data
Richard Davis: collection and analysis is one thing, but representing the data is another thing, right? So we've done over 30 report meetings with our customers. To review at this point, a little more than 400, what we call insights, but our issues. And so as we continue building on the success of this, We are calculating total energy savings associated with resolving those issues, as well as estimated equipment downtime.
Uh, both metrics, which I can't quantify right now, but we are seeing very good results within those clients. [00:06:00]
James Dice: Why did you start down the path with this project and what were the goals for, for it?
Richard Davis: So, as a company, We, we already knew we had a gap in the way we provided services and offerings to our customers, and that gap naturally came about when we found that there was just a lack of information in regards to the types of systems we maintained at buildings.
And I mean, basic information like finding an asset list or getting access to utility bills. A lot of that was difficult just to track down, some on the Limbach side, some on the customer side, right? So we had this issue with data aggregation. We also, across those different branch locations, had different service departments trying different solutions, which is good.
We like them to be innovative, to try new things. But as a company of our size, it's all about standardizing our offering to be consistent. And scalable across all those branches. So we had to solve that problem. The last one, from a goal perspective, our goal was [00:07:00] to start a digital revolution, if you will, in the way that we provided our services.
It's a focus on strengthening customer relationships, increasing our efficiency as a service provider, and really differentiating ourselves in the
James Dice: industry against our competition. What was it like before where you, you know, what were the worries, I guess, you know, falling behind, but, you know, compared to your competition, maybe that's one of them.
What was like the pain of not having a, an asset list, like you just said, or what was the pain of not having data on your. Effectiveness of the service you're providing. What was that like? Yeah.
Richard Davis: So I don't think it's going to surprise anyone when I'd say that, you know, living in a compartmentalized chaotic world as a service provider is not ideal.
Right. At times I considered it almost like the wild west out there by using all these different applications and all these different methods, sometimes even just printing out a form and writing it down. We had no way to combine all that data together. Another pain was, you know, [00:08:00] handing off project information or building information to another individual was never consistent.
And we lacked, as you can imagine, any sort of integration at tying data points together. So we were missing out on a lot of data that was already available. that we just couldn't consume and add in the complexity that some of our branches are also controls
James Dice: providers. Well, what other
Richard Davis: data are we kind of missing?
So the tech stack overall, without integrating and without being consistent, just lend itself to
James Dice: a lot of overall issues. And so, okay, so you set down the path of sort of how can we procure some sort of technology here to Solve these problems. Um, what were the, all the options you were looking at? So you probably did some sort of like visioning and, um, you know, scoping out what you're trying to look for and, you know, like looking at all the vendors in the marketplace and how did you sort of sort through what your options were and what were the options you were considering?[00:09:00]
Richard Davis: Yeah. So if I think back to that, which seems like forever ago, but if I looked at what we were doing. First place we started was identifying business requirements, which can be very tough to understand the solution you're solving for. I'd say don't start with the solution in search of the
James Dice: problem, really identify the problem, which, which is where we started.
Richard Davis: When we started to evaluate options in the market, again, we had some service teams at our branches that were already using some things that we could evaluate. So we started with those, tried and true, right? We had executive leadership. Bring a few to the table as well. Um, even members of the board brought through recommendations, which was great.
And then of course there's all the emails we constantly get. So all of
James Dice: which
Richard Davis: of these in one form or the other was a data analytics company. But as you kind of stack up the functionality of these, and you do the little kind of bullet chart of which checks the boxes, right? You start to see some just naturally [00:10:00] rise to the top.
And so we didn't just focus on what was currently in the market. Again, when I think about a vendor, it's not so much a vendor as a partner. We also looked at some emerging companies as well to see if maybe, where would they be a year from now or two years from now. So that whole process. Took us about a year to do, which was just a lot of meetings and demos, uh, countless interviews in pilots.
James Dice: So, you went through all these different options. Why, why'd you make the selection that you did? What, you said, you said a bunch of them stood out. Why, why'd you, why'd you pick what you picked?
Richard Davis: So, remember that little bullet comparison chart I was talking about? Um, you know, we started with the ones that checked a lot of the boxes.
Right, so we had a lot of requirements, and there were many applications we looked at, but out of those
James Dice: requirements, we said, well, which ones satisfy
Richard Davis: these, these three major ones? All right, so let's start with, first and foremost, cybersecurity. We needed something that we could trust and had [00:11:00] faith in as a company to show just, you know, not just our data, but also our customers data.
So we really had to vet out how secure a solution would be. So that kind of... Secondly, it had to be flexible, right? We're, we're a specialty mechanical contractor. The keyword there is special. I feel like every product user thinks that they have their own unique needs. And so we, in our mind, we said, well, the application needs to be flexible.
So our internal teams, as well as our customers can see the different data, dashboards, visualizations that they need. And we wanted to do that so we could provide a tailored experience, right? KPIs are great, but unless we're showing something in the form that my internal teams need or the customer needs, then you're just representing data that doesn't mean anything.
The last key part was integration. Integration, integration, integration. We needed a software partner that could integrate with building [00:12:00] automation systems, with utility providers, with... Other CMMS applications, you name it, we wanted someone who had the ability to, to build and support us with integrations.
And so based on all that, that's how we landed on the Facilio application is because they, they truly were a partner that could support us in all those areas.
James Dice: One of the other things that stands out to me about Facilio is their focus on workflows. So. Um, the ability for you to like basically not just figure out what happens in the data, but also figure out what to do about it and streamline everything related to solving the problem that the software comes up with.
Was that a big piece for you guys? Like how, how much have you sort of taken what they've built operationally and sort of integrated in with the operations? Processes of your
Richard Davis: service teams. Yeah. So that is something we're working on now. Um, part of what we're doing is we initially evaluated Facilio to be a kind of an offering and service to our customers, but after using it [00:13:00] for as long as we have looking at applying the Facilio application to our internal needs, right?
How can we augment or replace things in our current tech stack with the Facilio application? Their workflow engine, their ability to, to customize those workflows is why we can even have that conversation. Um, being a service provider, as long as we have had, um, different applications, it can be tough to leave all that behind.
And a lot of that is ingrained in our staff that have been using something for years. So, when we do another application, it has to have some similarity to our existing workflow. And Facilio brought that to the table. The ability to customize that application in the instance of the Limbach environment.
So we can help that change management. Yeah,
James Dice: cool. Yeah. I want to talk through that in a little bit more detail in just a second, but let's talk through the, just the main phases of deployment here. So you talked about, um, the selection. We can move past the selection. You talked about pilot projects. Can you kind of take us through.
Beginning of the first pilot, kind of, what [00:14:00] were the main phases to get to today, a year later, where you're talking about totally scaling this thing up? Um, what did that look like for you? Yeah, so we started with,
Richard Davis: most importantly, just educating our internal teams and our customers on what we were
James Dice: looking to achieve through a pilot, right?
Setting
Richard Davis: those expectations. So, education and communication was key to the success. Once we got into what we were trying to achieve, and everyone was clear on the outcomes, we moved into the installation part of the data collection, the installing the Facilio Agent, integrations to different other providers, right?
James Dice: So, we told them what
Richard Davis: we were doing, we started collecting data, We had to make sense of that data, right, called the commissioning process. Understanding point names, understanding data relationships, all that can be very time consuming, although I would say I was, the whole team was surprised at how quickly we could accomplish that with the application.
From there, we've collected data, [00:15:00] now we need to report and analyze that data. So we had to go through iterations of figuring out really good data representations, uh, dashboards, views. What is a quick way for us to use all that and drive FDD results and analysis, really for us, where the rubber meets the road, is some sort of actionable item.
By the time we made it all the way to the end of that, we've been collecting data, we've been reporting, we've been developing what we call these insights, right? We've been seeing those insights put into action. We've been using the same data to show that things were corrected. And then from there, it's kind of, for instance, repeat, right?
Where can we get a little bit better at representing one data? Where does the data may be incorrect in another instance? And so that's the phase we're at right now is kind of fine tuning that. And do
James Dice: you feel like right now, is this a standard part of your service operations? Is this just the way that business gets done or is there another phase to sort of validate that this is the way?
We know
Richard Davis: this is the way. Right now, through those internal teams, we're working on education, [00:16:00] marketing, and training support, right? So they can go out and sell this. This is another tool in the toolbox for them to qualify our customers and present to. It doesn't make sense for everyone. But where it does make sense, our team see a ton of value in having that data.
Available, because as a service provider, think how great it is when we can pick up the phone and call the customer when there's an issue instead of the other way around, right? So as our team see more and more success, again, it takes time, but we're seeing more and more traction. So I always allude to the sales funnel because I'm really excited about it because it just takes time to go through that
James Dice: process.
And where does this apply best, uh, compared to, like, where, where might it not be a good fit? Um. Across your
Richard Davis: customer base. So we, if we have a particular customer, um, who maybe doesn't have a very robust mechanical system or large utility spend, and they're all concerned about an ROI, right, then there may not necessarily be a huge ROI on [00:17:00] reducing energy consumption.
And sometimes you can't get past that with a particular customer, no matter how much you tell them about reducing equipment downtime or reducing, you know, operational expenses, sometimes it's just not the right fit. The other one is if your customer has pneumatic controls, guess what? You can't integrate with.
It's a very, very, very old loading automation system. So let's get that one out. The last one where maybe it doesn't necessarily fit is we see value in providing analysis and actual items to our customers, and then seeing those, those changes made, we've had some customers that we've talked to that necessarily didn't have the funds to make any change.
And at that point, we're just reporting out issues. Over and over and over again, but not actually getting any value of the offering.
James Dice: Makes perfect sense. Um, so what do you see as the sort of next phase of or the future of this, this program?
Richard Davis: Yeah, so that's the exciting part, right? We've gone through the deployment.
We know it's a good solid offering. I think now we're working with our internal teams [00:18:00] to figure out how to expand these deployments to make it part of, you know, our core offering to our customers because we see the value in it. And so we're working on new approaches to approach our customers to communicate the needs.
To differentiate ourselves from other analytics applications they might be getting from their equipment provider or from their utility bill, right? I need to, I need to support our teams to be successful in that messaging. So that's one big part. The other part is, like I said a little bit earlier, is when we look at the Facilio application compared to our day to day operations, we're kind of evaluating what it can do against other items we're doing within our tech stack, right?
So where can Facilio start to do more? Internal side of Linbock company as well
James Dice: as for our customers. So let's just make sure that the audience at this point knows kind of what we're talking about here. And I'm going to. Say it and then you tell me where I'm wrong. But basically you guys are collecting utility bills, right?
Um, well, Facilio is collecting utility bills. You guys are then using that information to benchmark their [00:19:00] building to figure out where they're at versus where they should be on an annual, monthly, maybe sometimes hourly basis. Um, and they're using the, basically crunching those numbers, coming up with ways in which this building is, you know.
You know, 20 percent higher energy use than its peers. Um, here's an improvement that you maybe should be looking into like those types of things. And then you have fault detection diagnostics. That's getting into the actual equipment data from the control system saying here, go fix this broken valve. Um, it's costing you this much money per year, and it's more important than this damper over here that's costing you this much money per year.
Is that kind of what you're talking about in terms of technology capability? Yeah,
Richard Davis: that's spot on. Right. So the energy management side is all about benchmarking and tracking your performance. And for those customers who really care about the ROI, which everyone does, you need to show them the change by using.
The build rate or build usage and cost, right? Um, energy management in itself is not unique to this application provider. Facilio does it extremely well, but so do [00:20:00] a lot of other companies. I think when you take that data and you tie it together with the operational data from the building automation system, or I have more fun with real time electric meters as well, because then that's the picture of the puzzle when you figure out
James Dice: where the little
Richard Davis: consumers are.
But when you take all this and you roll it together, You apply the fault detection diagnostics to the operation of the building. You find the stuck valves, the stuck dampers. But then you find the priority items like mismatched commands on a chiller, right? Or a cooling tower fan not coming on. Or set points on all the VAVs not being satisfied and you realize there's an issue with the upstream air handling unit.
That's when you really dive into the data and that's where you really start to find these issues. The important thing is though not to be overwhelmed when you find all those issues because when you first deploy this you'll find hundreds. Think about ways to prioritize those, give them some sort of criticality.
So you're not overwhelmed [00:21:00] in, you know, your, your facility managers aren't overwhelmed.
James Dice: Let's talk about integrating. So you mentioned up front, integrating is the key word here. Um, and you, you've used it in two different contexts. One is integrating with control systems in your customers buildings. But you, what you're really talking about is integrating it into the processes.
Like the, you guys are, you know, you guys. Did service for however many years before this, now you're including this technology into the process. And so now you need to integrate that technology into the process. And basically it's a change management thing, right? So can you talk about how, you know, you, you, you said you're like in, in the process of that change management journey, but can you talk about kind of, um, What, what it's been like, uh, maybe talk about who, who's on the team or their analytics folks that are focused on being the tech folks on the team and sort of what are their roles and then what's that sort of evolution been like?
Richard Davis: So it's been, it's been a bit of a journey, right? I think when I look at what the [00:22:00] application and outcome of this whole process is, it's, it's really, you're identifying issues, points of conversation with the customer. I think when I describe our teams, it's the internal team. Doing the analysis through through the human lens, right?
Saying that the data is automatically telling us something. Let's really look at that data. Let's add some other parameters to it. Let's say, is it legitimate or not? If so, well, that's great. Now, how do we resolve the issue? And so through the analysis and what we call data driven action items, we really end up with a report, things that need to be corrected.
Now, sometimes it's a phone call because it's very severe. But usually it's a report that I coach our internal teams on, who then go out and present these to the customers, right? The change management part comes with, this is now another point of topic with the customer, right? When you take up their time, you need to definitely bring value.
And so as you work through coaching
James Dice: these reports, those reports almost
Richard Davis: start to [00:23:00] shape the meeting. And other conversations we have related to, to project work, to doing specific services for our customers. So it's a, it's a very good tool to use, to have a dialogue internally or for us externally with our customers.
And how
James Dice: could you kind of take this further, like what are the opportunities to take it even further than it is now in terms of integrating it into the service, service
Richard Davis: processes? Yeah, so when you think about what's generated through the fault detection diagnostics processes,
James Dice: you're really generating work orders or
Richard Davis: issues that need to be acted on.
And right now we're triaging those internally with our application, but it's good to think about, well, Fault Detection Diagnostics, I've been saying it's related to HVAC equipment, but really it can be related to any point of data. And I think it's important to see how we can bring more value to our customer in applying fault detection diagnostics when an elevator doesn't level properly, right, or a refrigerator door is kept open.
We're [00:24:00] not going to get anything from it as a service provider, but the application can do all that. And we need to do more for
James Dice: our customer. So the ability to think beyond mechanical data, usually. Yeah. Okay. Do you have any stories on, on, you know, your, your customers buildings? Some, any stories around, like.
What, what this has created for them or faults that this has avoided, you know, um, issues that this has avoided, things like that. Any
Richard Davis: stories there? Yeah. So we have a couple of good ones. Um, we have a client who is a museum and as a museum, they have very strict requirements for temperature control and relative humidity control.
And we had an instance through fault detection diagnostics where we noticed particular boxes. I think there were VAVs. were not satisfying humidity set points for a space, and in that space they had some, uh, different collection that didn't have adstrict humidity controls, but they had an upcoming collection of textiles that had [00:25:00] very, very stringent controls around the amount of humidity that could be in the space.
And so we used fault detection diagnostics to first identify there was an issue and show the trending of that issue, right? It just doesn't happen for this 15 minute interval. It happens throughout the day at very longer periods of time that there's a pattern here. And they were able to look at that and say, well, now we know the issue.
We know the problem equipment. We know the window of time we have in between swapping collections. And we know the window we need to benchmark the new, uh, space conditions. So we were able to use fault detection diagnostics to identify the issue, to get the work done in between collections, and then show that the equipment could maintain space conditions now.
And then, after they moved the textile collections in, we're still monitoring it and alarming. And we haven't seen it yet because we were able to fix the issue before it started to impact what is most important in a museum, a collection,
James Dice: the artifacts. [00:26:00] Totally. And what was the root cause of the issue?
Just I'm just curious as a nerd.
Richard Davis: Yeah. So it was something related to the VAV box operation. It wasn't anything upstream, which I thought was unique, but something going on with the VAV boxes that they couldn't control the humidity. Um, I had to open up the report, but I think that was like 26 reports ago.
So all of the stuck valves and stuck dampers and low CFM start to roll together.
James Dice: Yeah, but it was something basic in terms of just the ability to, for that VAV box to function, which is usually what it is, is just, you know. It could be a huge problem, just that basic problem is causing.
Richard Davis: Yeah. One of my, one of my favorite things to do is, um, we have another client who's a, who's a news studio and, um, they're 24 7 operation.
They, they do not have vacations or any time off and they have some problem systems and space conditions they can't satisfy. And so one of my favorite things to do is map overall system performance. And so we start with the thermostat in a space tied to a VAV [00:27:00] box and air flow monitor and we say, Hey, look, this box is not meeting space conditions.
But then you look at that box compared to another upstream VAV box, and you're like, they're not meeting space conditions either. Then you build this kind of analytical model that ties back to the air handling unit, and you find that the root cause is something going on with the air handling unit, not hitting the correct stack, right?
When you start to take the data and roll it together like that, you have a much more impactful story. Then if you just said, I'm VAVbox2 1 and it's always hot in here. All right, let's talk
James Dice: about, um, lessons learned. So if you guys, if you were talking to one of your competitors, which I understand that you don't want to do that, but, uh, that's kind of what you're doing right now.
So I appreciate you for sharing your, your lessons learned and your insights. I think it's a part of what Nexus is all about is coming together to sort of make change across the industry. And that sometimes requires sharing, sharing some hard earned lessons. So, um, the [00:28:00] Let's talk about the challenges that you've seen, and for each of these, I'm going to also ask you like, what did you do to resolve, um, that challenge, uh, and get over that hump for you at Limbach?
So can you, can you kick us off? What's the first challenge?
Richard Davis: Yeah. So first one that comes to mind is your ability to make change, right? You can only create change when you make a change. And by that, I mean, if you think the outcomes of the application of this technology is you find issues. And you only bring value when you resolve those issues.
We've had some clients we've had conversations with that We identify a lot of problems, but they don't have the budget or the staff, the ability to change those yet. So the program did exactly what it was supposed to do, except I'm looking at the same faults day after day, week after week, because I know they can't fix it.
So that's, that's one point I want to make is unless you can go out there and tell facilities team or
James Dice: someone who's turning a wrench or someone on the control
Richard Davis: side, [00:29:00] what needs to be done. At that point, you're not bringing any value. You're ing a, you're identifying a problem, but you're not coaching or making sure it's resolved.
Totally.
James Dice: I call that the path to action, right? There has to be some sort of incentive and process related to closing the loop there. The
Richard Davis: way to get around that is for one of the customers, we said, okay, we know you don't have the budget yet, but let's help you prepare for next year, and so we're helping them show.
Additional energy costs, the inefficiency of the equipment. We're helping them show the impact to the occupants, what's happening to the people in the space, and we're helping them show the downtime. Now when you put all that together and give that to a facilities manager who goes out internally to say, hey, this is why I told you I need that extra money for next year, look how awful this is.
Um, I feel like the CFO almost has to say yes at that point, right? So even though you can't make change today, think about how you can hopefully make change tomorrow. Totally.
James Dice: And how are you coaching [00:30:00] people to say, like, obviously if it's a stuck damper, right, they're, they're not going to go put stuck damper one of two, you know, on the budget, right?
So how are you coaching them through, like, grouping these files together, maybe into projects? And how does that work? How does that coaching process
Richard Davis: work? Yeah. So, you know, as a service provider, we're able to combine these into, you know, rolling bands and talking to the customer and resolving these. And look, it's not always what you think it is.
Sometimes you think it's a stuck valve, but you go out and inspect it and there's something else happening. Right. So, you know, for us, our teams usually know the systems in system operation because we've been out there providing service for, to it for a number of years. So. Internally, when we do these reports, we come up with these action items.
It might already be part of the scope of work for Limbach, or we bundle them together, like those two VAVs for that museum client. into a project, into a scope of work. And we say, Hey, look, we want to help you make this change. And then we want to show you [00:31:00] that it's been resolved. Use the same data that identified the problem as almost like a measurement and verification that it's been
James Dice: resolved.
Makes perfect sense. What's, what's challenge number two for you guys? So
Richard Davis: being on the analysis side, um, I'd say that we only get meaningful analysis when we get meaningful data. And you really need to qualify the type of data you're going to be getting. And understand what that tells you, or maybe sometimes doesn't tell you about building operation.
So, you know, I think about data, we might have some clients who have network issues and sometimes you lose data connection or data frequency drops. And it's tough to do analysis when you're not collecting anything. The second part is when you look at a control system, especially you try and make sense of.
Naming convention on points. I feel like sometimes they name them after their dog. They make no sense at all, but you need to figure out is it a set point on an air handling unit or a baby box or whatever it is, right? You need to spend that time to make sure that you're getting the right data. And you need to [00:32:00] validate that data as you collect it.
If not, your fault detection diagnostics gonna be useless. Um, so that's the other part is just make sure that you understand what, what the data is, is telling you. And then I said what the data isn't telling you is because sometimes you might have a limitation on reading data from a specific component, but sometimes that's just.
outside of the control system and maybe the control system wasn't commissioned properly and there's points of data that need to be exposed or you need to include in some sort of day to day operation.
James Dice: So missing that is, is a problem in and of itself that you need to need to help resolve. Yeah, totally.
All right. What else? What's, what are the, what's another challenge? Well, I wouldn't be a technology conversation if
Richard Davis: I didn't talk about cybersecurity concerns, right? Um, I think the The last challenge we have that I really advise people to get in front of is conversations around cybersecurity. When you say, I'm integrating with this, or I need to install an application to collect data over here or plug in.
When you talk to the teams, like on the IT side, you [00:33:00] need to tell them how secure it is. You need to sell them on the security of the application. The facilities manager does care about this. Because it's still in their realm of work and they probably had to sit through some cyber security training. But you need to have that conversation with the tech teams early.
Because, you know, we haven't had anyone say no. Which is great. But we've had to have some very detailed meetings around the security of an application. With people way smarter than me on both sides. For them to say yes. So, have those conversations early so you can start collecting that data sooner. And,
James Dice: with you guys having so many different types of customers, right, so you've talked about museums, I know you guys have healthcare, probably K 12, fire ed, you probably have the full gamut, how do you guys approach that?
Because all of those different types of buildings and different types of organizations are going to handle their I. T. and their processes around I. T. and cybersecurity differently. How do you approach that as a vendor? [00:34:00] It's all
Richard Davis: about how you communicate,
James Dice: right? So, luckily, our application provider partner,
Richard Davis: Facilio, has very good documentation that gets a lot of the technical stuff out of the way, right?
So you need to communicate out as best as you can through email. You need to set up a meeting. with the people responsible for making the decision about installing a component instead of just trying to hash through details, uh, on an email thread. So I'd say send the documentation, schedule a meeting, have the conversations with the right people in the room, on your side as well as the customer's side.
Once you get through that first meeting, it's usually a go ahead after that. Totally, yeah,
James Dice: that matches my experience as well. Just being able to say exactly what you need and what you're gonna do is kind of the first battle.
Richard Davis: Yeah, gone is the world where I could say, Hey, can you just download this real quick so I can collect data?
Uh, it's much, much more complicated than that now.
James Dice: Alright, what about, what haven't we covered that you would tell someone that's just starting down this [00:35:00] path? Or if you can think about telling yourself. A year ago or two years ago, what have we covered that you would tell that person?
Richard Davis: You know, I would look at this in one of two ways.
I would say, um, if you can slow down a little bit, um, do your due diligence. Do your homework. Get your strategy together before you go out and solution, uh, a software vendor or partner, right? Make sure you have problems
James Dice: in search of a solution instead of a solution in search of
Richard Davis: problems. Get your business needs aligned.
Once you have that ready to go, Take your time evaluating partners, not just in their current state, but their future state. We picked
James Dice: a partner facility out because
Richard Davis: we know where they're going and we're aligned. So just be clear on your alignment on what's important to you and what's important to them.
So the last one I'd say is. You're talking a lot of buzzwords, right? You're using data analytics and fault detection diagnostics. You need to cut through all that jargon that people hear too much about and figure out a clear communication on [00:36:00] why this is important to you and why this is important to your customers or your facilities team.
All right? So you really need to distill it down to its basic, most basic functions, and then buzzword check yourself to make sure you don't sound too marketing or Gimmicky. I love it. That's
James Dice: very on brand for us, so thank you for adding that in at the end. I didn't, I didn't pay him to say that. Everyone
Um, but yeah, cut the fluff out there. Everybody,
Richard Davis: you know how many
James Dice: emails I read, James, like
Richard Davis: everyone that say the exact same thing on it and, and I'm on the other side, I'm saying, well, I definitely don't want to communicate it or market it that way because I'm not reading this past the subject line . So I'm not saying you need click bait in marketing stuff here, but.
You need to really think about what's important.
James Dice: Yeah. Especially with the audience that you're talking to, right? People that are procuring mechanical and control services, right? Those are facility managers. Those are, you know. Technicians, those are people that don't have time for all any of that shit.
Richard Davis: Yeah, and they will tell you, very [00:37:00] bluntly, they don't have time for any of that.
James Dice: Totally. Well, thanks for coming on the show, Richard. Uh, anything else to, to close us off? No,
Richard Davis: James. I think this was a good conversation. I appreciate you having me here.
James Dice: All right. Thanks again.
Rosy Khalife: Okay, friends, thank you for listening to this episode. As we continue to grow our global community of changemakers, we need your help. For the next couple of months, we're challenging our listeners to share a link to their favorite Nexus episode on LinkedIn with a short post about why you listen. It would really, really help us out.
Make sure to tag us in the post so we can see it. Have a good one.
"We’ve always been focused on energy solutions to our customers. Our history goes back 30 years as an energy service provider. In the early days it was all about creating efficient building system designs using the latest technologies. That was fundamental because to this day our core value does include providing innovative solutions. Innovative solutions are both our design and application of technology for the betterment of our customers.”
—Richard Davis
Welcome to Nexus, a newsletter and podcast for smart people applying smart building technology—hosted by James Dice. If you’re new to Nexus, you might want to start here.
The Nexus podcast (Apple | Spotify | YouTube | Other apps) is our chance to explore and learn with the brightest in our industry—together. The project is directly funded by listeners like you who have joined the Nexus Pro membership community.
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Episode 158 is a conversation with Richard Davis from Limbach Holdings.
Episode 158 features Richard Davis from Limbach Holdings and is our 7th episode in the Case Study series looking at real-life, large-scale deployments of smart building technologies. These are not marketing fluff stories, these are lessons from leaders that others can put into use in their smart buildings programs. This conversation explores how Limbach Holdings is integrating FDD and energy management softwares into their HVAC and plumbing services. Enjoy!
You can find Richard on LinkedIn.
Overview (1:16)
Introduction to Richard Davis (1:45)
What Limbach does (2:29)
Who is the vendor team (3:47)
How many buildings have the install (4:22)
What are the results (5:18)
Why did you start this path (6:00)
What were the worries (7:22)
What were the options for solutions (8:47)
Why did you make the selection you made (10:32)
Main phases to get where you are now (14:03)
The future of the program (17:49)
Who’s on the team (21:50)
Opportunities to take it further (23:25)
Issues this has avoided for customers (24:25)
Lessons learned (27:37)
The coaching process (30:17)
Cyber security challenges (32:40)
Handling different types of buildings (33:52)
What would you tell someone just starting out (35:06)
Music credits: There Is A Reality by Common Tiger—licensed under an Music Vine Limited Pro Standard License ID: S506938-16073.
Note: transcript was created using an imperfect machine learning tool and lightly edited by a human (so you can get the gist). Please forgive errors!
Richard Davis: [00:00:00] We've always been focused on energy solutions to our customers. Our history goes back to 30 years as kind of an energy service provider. In those early days, it was all about creating efficient building system designs using what at the late at that time was latest technology. But that was fundamental because to this day, our core value does include we provide innovative solutions, right?
Innovative solutions are both our design and application of technology for really the betterment of our customers.
James Dice: There are three ways to do that. First, you can join the Nexus Pro Membership. It's our global community of smart building professionals. We have monthly events, paywall deep dive content, and a private chat room, and it's just 35 a month. Second, you can upgrade from the Pro Membership to our courses offering.
It's headlined by our flagship course, the Smart Building Strategist. And we're building a catalog of courses [00:01:00] taught by world leading experts on each topic under the Smart Buildings umbrella. Third, and finally, our marketplace is how we connect leading vendors with buyers looking for their solutions.
The links are below in the show notes. And now let's go on to the podcast.
All right, welcome to the Nexus podcast. This is the latest episode in our series, diving into case studies of real life and large scale deployments of smart building technologies. I emphasize real life because we're not here to create a marketing fluff story. We're here to share lessons from leaders that others can put to use in their smart buildings program.
And today we have a story coming from Limbach Holdings, a mechanical electrical plumbing or MEP contractor with 1, 500 employees and 17 US offices. Um, I have here Richard Davis, the director of product management at Limbach. Richard, can you introduce yourself, please?
Richard Davis: Certainly. So, let's just start with, you might be wondering what exactly a product manager does at a construction and service company.
Um, and [00:02:00] to completely be honest with you, James, I sometimes wonder if I could even write down my own job description. Um, but at its core, my role is to support the evaluation, implementation, and continued success. of our customer facing applications in tech focused services, right? So I need to make sure that the investment and time we've spent on leveraging applications Actually bring value to our customer.
James Dice: And can you talk about Limbach as a whole? For people that haven't heard that name before. What do you guys do besides mechanical, electrical, plumbing? Maybe that's it.
Richard Davis: Yeah, So Limbach as a whole, we've been around since 1901. Alright, so we're fairly old. Um, we are historically a design, build, mechanical contractor.
So, building systems, HVAC, plumbing, electrical and controls. Uh, we also have pivoted to this model of being a... A service provider. We've always done mechanical service in one location or another, but really the focus of the company now is how can we be better at installing systems, but [00:03:00] also maintaining those systems.
So when I say MEP plus C, it's the mechanical systems, plus controls, plus program management, plus anything we think brings value to our customers.
James Dice: Got it, got it. And today we're going to talk about a specific, uh, Deployment here, right? So we're going to talk about, um, you guys basically, and this is my words, you, you feel free to correct me, basically, um, integrating FDD or fault detection diagnostics and energy management sort of software application into your service or providing your customers.
Is that right? That's exactly right. The word of the day is going to be integration. Love it. So let's start with some rapid fire questions about that project to sort of set the context because we're basically doing a case study here. So, um, let's, let's go back and forth pretty quickly. Who's the, the vendor team, the, the software vendor that you're using?
Richard Davis: So look, I was told by my CEO years ago that we don't look for vendors, we look for software partners, right? So I might correct you on that terminology, but our software partner is really [00:04:00] someone we have a strategic relationship with that not only benefits Limbach, selfishly, But also the provider. So to kind of rephrase your questions, our main partner right now for this offering is a provider called Facilio.
And we're leveraging their connected building platforms, which is
James Dice: really the core of what you would call a smart buildings technology offering. And how many buildings have you guys installed this technology product in? Yeah,
Richard Davis: so we're currently installed in around 20 buildings. I'd have to check what the up to date numbers are, but as we expand our offering, there's some things changing that are really going to increase where we install this, which I'm kind of excited about.
James Dice: Got it. And how many square feet? So we are just shy of a million square feet up and running already installed. Um, but
Richard Davis: when I looked at our sales funnel this morning,
James Dice: I think if a lot of these come to light, we'll blow that number out of the water. So you're really scaling this thing up. And when did you start this effort?
Richard Davis: Yeah, so we started this with a few pilot jobs a little over a year ago. We
James Dice: had three key [00:05:00] projects across a very large portfolio,
Richard Davis: um, all of which I'm happy to say didn't renew. So I have a hundred percent renewal rate right now. Uh, but
James Dice: it's been about a year. In the last year, what are the results you've seen?
That could be, um, energy savings. It could be just, um, you know, tasks completed that were recommended by the software. It could be anything. But yeah, what are the results you're seeing and maybe that you're celebrating?
Richard Davis: Yeah, so we have kind of two big deliverables. One, we do a lot of
James Dice: report generation, right?
So data
Richard Davis: collection and analysis is one thing, but representing the data is another thing, right? So we've done over 30 report meetings with our customers. To review at this point, a little more than 400, what we call insights, but our issues. And so as we continue building on the success of this, We are calculating total energy savings associated with resolving those issues, as well as estimated equipment downtime.
Uh, both metrics, which I can't quantify right now, but we are seeing very good results within those clients. [00:06:00]
James Dice: Why did you start down the path with this project and what were the goals for, for it?
Richard Davis: So, as a company, We, we already knew we had a gap in the way we provided services and offerings to our customers, and that gap naturally came about when we found that there was just a lack of information in regards to the types of systems we maintained at buildings.
And I mean, basic information like finding an asset list or getting access to utility bills. A lot of that was difficult just to track down, some on the Limbach side, some on the customer side, right? So we had this issue with data aggregation. We also, across those different branch locations, had different service departments trying different solutions, which is good.
We like them to be innovative, to try new things. But as a company of our size, it's all about standardizing our offering to be consistent. And scalable across all those branches. So we had to solve that problem. The last one, from a goal perspective, our goal was [00:07:00] to start a digital revolution, if you will, in the way that we provided our services.
It's a focus on strengthening customer relationships, increasing our efficiency as a service provider, and really differentiating ourselves in the
James Dice: industry against our competition. What was it like before where you, you know, what were the worries, I guess, you know, falling behind, but, you know, compared to your competition, maybe that's one of them.
What was like the pain of not having a, an asset list, like you just said, or what was the pain of not having data on your. Effectiveness of the service you're providing. What was that like? Yeah.
Richard Davis: So I don't think it's going to surprise anyone when I'd say that, you know, living in a compartmentalized chaotic world as a service provider is not ideal.
Right. At times I considered it almost like the wild west out there by using all these different applications and all these different methods, sometimes even just printing out a form and writing it down. We had no way to combine all that data together. Another pain was, you know, [00:08:00] handing off project information or building information to another individual was never consistent.
And we lacked, as you can imagine, any sort of integration at tying data points together. So we were missing out on a lot of data that was already available. that we just couldn't consume and add in the complexity that some of our branches are also controls
James Dice: providers. Well, what other
Richard Davis: data are we kind of missing?
So the tech stack overall, without integrating and without being consistent, just lend itself to
James Dice: a lot of overall issues. And so, okay, so you set down the path of sort of how can we procure some sort of technology here to Solve these problems. Um, what were the, all the options you were looking at? So you probably did some sort of like visioning and, um, you know, scoping out what you're trying to look for and, you know, like looking at all the vendors in the marketplace and how did you sort of sort through what your options were and what were the options you were considering?[00:09:00]
Richard Davis: Yeah. So if I think back to that, which seems like forever ago, but if I looked at what we were doing. First place we started was identifying business requirements, which can be very tough to understand the solution you're solving for. I'd say don't start with the solution in search of the
James Dice: problem, really identify the problem, which, which is where we started.
Richard Davis: When we started to evaluate options in the market, again, we had some service teams at our branches that were already using some things that we could evaluate. So we started with those, tried and true, right? We had executive leadership. Bring a few to the table as well. Um, even members of the board brought through recommendations, which was great.
And then of course there's all the emails we constantly get. So all of
James Dice: which
Richard Davis: of these in one form or the other was a data analytics company. But as you kind of stack up the functionality of these, and you do the little kind of bullet chart of which checks the boxes, right? You start to see some just naturally [00:10:00] rise to the top.
And so we didn't just focus on what was currently in the market. Again, when I think about a vendor, it's not so much a vendor as a partner. We also looked at some emerging companies as well to see if maybe, where would they be a year from now or two years from now. So that whole process. Took us about a year to do, which was just a lot of meetings and demos, uh, countless interviews in pilots.
James Dice: So, you went through all these different options. Why, why'd you make the selection that you did? What, you said, you said a bunch of them stood out. Why, why'd you, why'd you pick what you picked?
Richard Davis: So, remember that little bullet comparison chart I was talking about? Um, you know, we started with the ones that checked a lot of the boxes.
Right, so we had a lot of requirements, and there were many applications we looked at, but out of those
James Dice: requirements, we said, well, which ones satisfy
Richard Davis: these, these three major ones? All right, so let's start with, first and foremost, cybersecurity. We needed something that we could trust and had [00:11:00] faith in as a company to show just, you know, not just our data, but also our customers data.
So we really had to vet out how secure a solution would be. So that kind of... Secondly, it had to be flexible, right? We're, we're a specialty mechanical contractor. The keyword there is special. I feel like every product user thinks that they have their own unique needs. And so we, in our mind, we said, well, the application needs to be flexible.
So our internal teams, as well as our customers can see the different data, dashboards, visualizations that they need. And we wanted to do that so we could provide a tailored experience, right? KPIs are great, but unless we're showing something in the form that my internal teams need or the customer needs, then you're just representing data that doesn't mean anything.
The last key part was integration. Integration, integration, integration. We needed a software partner that could integrate with building [00:12:00] automation systems, with utility providers, with... Other CMMS applications, you name it, we wanted someone who had the ability to, to build and support us with integrations.
And so based on all that, that's how we landed on the Facilio application is because they, they truly were a partner that could support us in all those areas.
James Dice: One of the other things that stands out to me about Facilio is their focus on workflows. So. Um, the ability for you to like basically not just figure out what happens in the data, but also figure out what to do about it and streamline everything related to solving the problem that the software comes up with.
Was that a big piece for you guys? Like how, how much have you sort of taken what they've built operationally and sort of integrated in with the operations? Processes of your
Richard Davis: service teams. Yeah. So that is something we're working on now. Um, part of what we're doing is we initially evaluated Facilio to be a kind of an offering and service to our customers, but after using it [00:13:00] for as long as we have looking at applying the Facilio application to our internal needs, right?
How can we augment or replace things in our current tech stack with the Facilio application? Their workflow engine, their ability to, to customize those workflows is why we can even have that conversation. Um, being a service provider, as long as we have had, um, different applications, it can be tough to leave all that behind.
And a lot of that is ingrained in our staff that have been using something for years. So, when we do another application, it has to have some similarity to our existing workflow. And Facilio brought that to the table. The ability to customize that application in the instance of the Limbach environment.
So we can help that change management. Yeah,
James Dice: cool. Yeah. I want to talk through that in a little bit more detail in just a second, but let's talk through the, just the main phases of deployment here. So you talked about, um, the selection. We can move past the selection. You talked about pilot projects. Can you kind of take us through.
Beginning of the first pilot, kind of, what [00:14:00] were the main phases to get to today, a year later, where you're talking about totally scaling this thing up? Um, what did that look like for you? Yeah, so we started with,
Richard Davis: most importantly, just educating our internal teams and our customers on what we were
James Dice: looking to achieve through a pilot, right?
Setting
Richard Davis: those expectations. So, education and communication was key to the success. Once we got into what we were trying to achieve, and everyone was clear on the outcomes, we moved into the installation part of the data collection, the installing the Facilio Agent, integrations to different other providers, right?
James Dice: So, we told them what
Richard Davis: we were doing, we started collecting data, We had to make sense of that data, right, called the commissioning process. Understanding point names, understanding data relationships, all that can be very time consuming, although I would say I was, the whole team was surprised at how quickly we could accomplish that with the application.
From there, we've collected data, [00:15:00] now we need to report and analyze that data. So we had to go through iterations of figuring out really good data representations, uh, dashboards, views. What is a quick way for us to use all that and drive FDD results and analysis, really for us, where the rubber meets the road, is some sort of actionable item.
By the time we made it all the way to the end of that, we've been collecting data, we've been reporting, we've been developing what we call these insights, right? We've been seeing those insights put into action. We've been using the same data to show that things were corrected. And then from there, it's kind of, for instance, repeat, right?
Where can we get a little bit better at representing one data? Where does the data may be incorrect in another instance? And so that's the phase we're at right now is kind of fine tuning that. And do
James Dice: you feel like right now, is this a standard part of your service operations? Is this just the way that business gets done or is there another phase to sort of validate that this is the way?
We know
Richard Davis: this is the way. Right now, through those internal teams, we're working on education, [00:16:00] marketing, and training support, right? So they can go out and sell this. This is another tool in the toolbox for them to qualify our customers and present to. It doesn't make sense for everyone. But where it does make sense, our team see a ton of value in having that data.
Available, because as a service provider, think how great it is when we can pick up the phone and call the customer when there's an issue instead of the other way around, right? So as our team see more and more success, again, it takes time, but we're seeing more and more traction. So I always allude to the sales funnel because I'm really excited about it because it just takes time to go through that
James Dice: process.
And where does this apply best, uh, compared to, like, where, where might it not be a good fit? Um. Across your
Richard Davis: customer base. So we, if we have a particular customer, um, who maybe doesn't have a very robust mechanical system or large utility spend, and they're all concerned about an ROI, right, then there may not necessarily be a huge ROI on [00:17:00] reducing energy consumption.
And sometimes you can't get past that with a particular customer, no matter how much you tell them about reducing equipment downtime or reducing, you know, operational expenses, sometimes it's just not the right fit. The other one is if your customer has pneumatic controls, guess what? You can't integrate with.
It's a very, very, very old loading automation system. So let's get that one out. The last one where maybe it doesn't necessarily fit is we see value in providing analysis and actual items to our customers, and then seeing those, those changes made, we've had some customers that we've talked to that necessarily didn't have the funds to make any change.
And at that point, we're just reporting out issues. Over and over and over again, but not actually getting any value of the offering.
James Dice: Makes perfect sense. Um, so what do you see as the sort of next phase of or the future of this, this program?
Richard Davis: Yeah, so that's the exciting part, right? We've gone through the deployment.
We know it's a good solid offering. I think now we're working with our internal teams [00:18:00] to figure out how to expand these deployments to make it part of, you know, our core offering to our customers because we see the value in it. And so we're working on new approaches to approach our customers to communicate the needs.
To differentiate ourselves from other analytics applications they might be getting from their equipment provider or from their utility bill, right? I need to, I need to support our teams to be successful in that messaging. So that's one big part. The other part is, like I said a little bit earlier, is when we look at the Facilio application compared to our day to day operations, we're kind of evaluating what it can do against other items we're doing within our tech stack, right?
So where can Facilio start to do more? Internal side of Linbock company as well
James Dice: as for our customers. So let's just make sure that the audience at this point knows kind of what we're talking about here. And I'm going to. Say it and then you tell me where I'm wrong. But basically you guys are collecting utility bills, right?
Um, well, Facilio is collecting utility bills. You guys are then using that information to benchmark their [00:19:00] building to figure out where they're at versus where they should be on an annual, monthly, maybe sometimes hourly basis. Um, and they're using the, basically crunching those numbers, coming up with ways in which this building is, you know.
You know, 20 percent higher energy use than its peers. Um, here's an improvement that you maybe should be looking into like those types of things. And then you have fault detection diagnostics. That's getting into the actual equipment data from the control system saying here, go fix this broken valve. Um, it's costing you this much money per year, and it's more important than this damper over here that's costing you this much money per year.
Is that kind of what you're talking about in terms of technology capability? Yeah,
Richard Davis: that's spot on. Right. So the energy management side is all about benchmarking and tracking your performance. And for those customers who really care about the ROI, which everyone does, you need to show them the change by using.
The build rate or build usage and cost, right? Um, energy management in itself is not unique to this application provider. Facilio does it extremely well, but so do [00:20:00] a lot of other companies. I think when you take that data and you tie it together with the operational data from the building automation system, or I have more fun with real time electric meters as well, because then that's the picture of the puzzle when you figure out
James Dice: where the little
Richard Davis: consumers are.
But when you take all this and you roll it together, You apply the fault detection diagnostics to the operation of the building. You find the stuck valves, the stuck dampers. But then you find the priority items like mismatched commands on a chiller, right? Or a cooling tower fan not coming on. Or set points on all the VAVs not being satisfied and you realize there's an issue with the upstream air handling unit.
That's when you really dive into the data and that's where you really start to find these issues. The important thing is though not to be overwhelmed when you find all those issues because when you first deploy this you'll find hundreds. Think about ways to prioritize those, give them some sort of criticality.
So you're not overwhelmed [00:21:00] in, you know, your, your facility managers aren't overwhelmed.
James Dice: Let's talk about integrating. So you mentioned up front, integrating is the key word here. Um, and you, you've used it in two different contexts. One is integrating with control systems in your customers buildings. But you, what you're really talking about is integrating it into the processes.
Like the, you guys are, you know, you guys. Did service for however many years before this, now you're including this technology into the process. And so now you need to integrate that technology into the process. And basically it's a change management thing, right? So can you talk about how, you know, you, you, you said you're like in, in the process of that change management journey, but can you talk about kind of, um, What, what it's been like, uh, maybe talk about who, who's on the team or their analytics folks that are focused on being the tech folks on the team and sort of what are their roles and then what's that sort of evolution been like?
Richard Davis: So it's been, it's been a bit of a journey, right? I think when I look at what the [00:22:00] application and outcome of this whole process is, it's, it's really, you're identifying issues, points of conversation with the customer. I think when I describe our teams, it's the internal team. Doing the analysis through through the human lens, right?
Saying that the data is automatically telling us something. Let's really look at that data. Let's add some other parameters to it. Let's say, is it legitimate or not? If so, well, that's great. Now, how do we resolve the issue? And so through the analysis and what we call data driven action items, we really end up with a report, things that need to be corrected.
Now, sometimes it's a phone call because it's very severe. But usually it's a report that I coach our internal teams on, who then go out and present these to the customers, right? The change management part comes with, this is now another point of topic with the customer, right? When you take up their time, you need to definitely bring value.
And so as you work through coaching
James Dice: these reports, those reports almost
Richard Davis: start to [00:23:00] shape the meeting. And other conversations we have related to, to project work, to doing specific services for our customers. So it's a, it's a very good tool to use, to have a dialogue internally or for us externally with our customers.
And how
James Dice: could you kind of take this further, like what are the opportunities to take it even further than it is now in terms of integrating it into the service, service
Richard Davis: processes? Yeah, so when you think about what's generated through the fault detection diagnostics processes,
James Dice: you're really generating work orders or
Richard Davis: issues that need to be acted on.
And right now we're triaging those internally with our application, but it's good to think about, well, Fault Detection Diagnostics, I've been saying it's related to HVAC equipment, but really it can be related to any point of data. And I think it's important to see how we can bring more value to our customer in applying fault detection diagnostics when an elevator doesn't level properly, right, or a refrigerator door is kept open.
We're [00:24:00] not going to get anything from it as a service provider, but the application can do all that. And we need to do more for
James Dice: our customer. So the ability to think beyond mechanical data, usually. Yeah. Okay. Do you have any stories on, on, you know, your, your customers buildings? Some, any stories around, like.
What, what this has created for them or faults that this has avoided, you know, um, issues that this has avoided, things like that. Any
Richard Davis: stories there? Yeah. So we have a couple of good ones. Um, we have a client who is a museum and as a museum, they have very strict requirements for temperature control and relative humidity control.
And we had an instance through fault detection diagnostics where we noticed particular boxes. I think there were VAVs. were not satisfying humidity set points for a space, and in that space they had some, uh, different collection that didn't have adstrict humidity controls, but they had an upcoming collection of textiles that had [00:25:00] very, very stringent controls around the amount of humidity that could be in the space.
And so we used fault detection diagnostics to first identify there was an issue and show the trending of that issue, right? It just doesn't happen for this 15 minute interval. It happens throughout the day at very longer periods of time that there's a pattern here. And they were able to look at that and say, well, now we know the issue.
We know the problem equipment. We know the window of time we have in between swapping collections. And we know the window we need to benchmark the new, uh, space conditions. So we were able to use fault detection diagnostics to identify the issue, to get the work done in between collections, and then show that the equipment could maintain space conditions now.
And then, after they moved the textile collections in, we're still monitoring it and alarming. And we haven't seen it yet because we were able to fix the issue before it started to impact what is most important in a museum, a collection,
James Dice: the artifacts. [00:26:00] Totally. And what was the root cause of the issue?
Just I'm just curious as a nerd.
Richard Davis: Yeah. So it was something related to the VAV box operation. It wasn't anything upstream, which I thought was unique, but something going on with the VAV boxes that they couldn't control the humidity. Um, I had to open up the report, but I think that was like 26 reports ago.
So all of the stuck valves and stuck dampers and low CFM start to roll together.
James Dice: Yeah, but it was something basic in terms of just the ability to, for that VAV box to function, which is usually what it is, is just, you know. It could be a huge problem, just that basic problem is causing.
Richard Davis: Yeah. One of my, one of my favorite things to do is, um, we have another client who's a, who's a news studio and, um, they're 24 7 operation.
They, they do not have vacations or any time off and they have some problem systems and space conditions they can't satisfy. And so one of my favorite things to do is map overall system performance. And so we start with the thermostat in a space tied to a VAV [00:27:00] box and air flow monitor and we say, Hey, look, this box is not meeting space conditions.
But then you look at that box compared to another upstream VAV box, and you're like, they're not meeting space conditions either. Then you build this kind of analytical model that ties back to the air handling unit, and you find that the root cause is something going on with the air handling unit, not hitting the correct stack, right?
When you start to take the data and roll it together like that, you have a much more impactful story. Then if you just said, I'm VAVbox2 1 and it's always hot in here. All right, let's talk
James Dice: about, um, lessons learned. So if you guys, if you were talking to one of your competitors, which I understand that you don't want to do that, but, uh, that's kind of what you're doing right now.
So I appreciate you for sharing your, your lessons learned and your insights. I think it's a part of what Nexus is all about is coming together to sort of make change across the industry. And that sometimes requires sharing, sharing some hard earned lessons. So, um, the [00:28:00] Let's talk about the challenges that you've seen, and for each of these, I'm going to also ask you like, what did you do to resolve, um, that challenge, uh, and get over that hump for you at Limbach?
So can you, can you kick us off? What's the first challenge?
Richard Davis: Yeah. So first one that comes to mind is your ability to make change, right? You can only create change when you make a change. And by that, I mean, if you think the outcomes of the application of this technology is you find issues. And you only bring value when you resolve those issues.
We've had some clients we've had conversations with that We identify a lot of problems, but they don't have the budget or the staff, the ability to change those yet. So the program did exactly what it was supposed to do, except I'm looking at the same faults day after day, week after week, because I know they can't fix it.
So that's, that's one point I want to make is unless you can go out there and tell facilities team or
James Dice: someone who's turning a wrench or someone on the control
Richard Davis: side, [00:29:00] what needs to be done. At that point, you're not bringing any value. You're ing a, you're identifying a problem, but you're not coaching or making sure it's resolved.
Totally.
James Dice: I call that the path to action, right? There has to be some sort of incentive and process related to closing the loop there. The
Richard Davis: way to get around that is for one of the customers, we said, okay, we know you don't have the budget yet, but let's help you prepare for next year, and so we're helping them show.
Additional energy costs, the inefficiency of the equipment. We're helping them show the impact to the occupants, what's happening to the people in the space, and we're helping them show the downtime. Now when you put all that together and give that to a facilities manager who goes out internally to say, hey, this is why I told you I need that extra money for next year, look how awful this is.
Um, I feel like the CFO almost has to say yes at that point, right? So even though you can't make change today, think about how you can hopefully make change tomorrow. Totally.
James Dice: And how are you coaching [00:30:00] people to say, like, obviously if it's a stuck damper, right, they're, they're not going to go put stuck damper one of two, you know, on the budget, right?
So how are you coaching them through, like, grouping these files together, maybe into projects? And how does that work? How does that coaching process
Richard Davis: work? Yeah. So, you know, as a service provider, we're able to combine these into, you know, rolling bands and talking to the customer and resolving these. And look, it's not always what you think it is.
Sometimes you think it's a stuck valve, but you go out and inspect it and there's something else happening. Right. So, you know, for us, our teams usually know the systems in system operation because we've been out there providing service for, to it for a number of years. So. Internally, when we do these reports, we come up with these action items.
It might already be part of the scope of work for Limbach, or we bundle them together, like those two VAVs for that museum client. into a project, into a scope of work. And we say, Hey, look, we want to help you make this change. And then we want to show you [00:31:00] that it's been resolved. Use the same data that identified the problem as almost like a measurement and verification that it's been
James Dice: resolved.
Makes perfect sense. What's, what's challenge number two for you guys? So
Richard Davis: being on the analysis side, um, I'd say that we only get meaningful analysis when we get meaningful data. And you really need to qualify the type of data you're going to be getting. And understand what that tells you, or maybe sometimes doesn't tell you about building operation.
So, you know, I think about data, we might have some clients who have network issues and sometimes you lose data connection or data frequency drops. And it's tough to do analysis when you're not collecting anything. The second part is when you look at a control system, especially you try and make sense of.
Naming convention on points. I feel like sometimes they name them after their dog. They make no sense at all, but you need to figure out is it a set point on an air handling unit or a baby box or whatever it is, right? You need to spend that time to make sure that you're getting the right data. And you need to [00:32:00] validate that data as you collect it.
If not, your fault detection diagnostics gonna be useless. Um, so that's the other part is just make sure that you understand what, what the data is, is telling you. And then I said what the data isn't telling you is because sometimes you might have a limitation on reading data from a specific component, but sometimes that's just.
outside of the control system and maybe the control system wasn't commissioned properly and there's points of data that need to be exposed or you need to include in some sort of day to day operation.
James Dice: So missing that is, is a problem in and of itself that you need to need to help resolve. Yeah, totally.
All right. What else? What's, what are the, what's another challenge? Well, I wouldn't be a technology conversation if
Richard Davis: I didn't talk about cybersecurity concerns, right? Um, I think the The last challenge we have that I really advise people to get in front of is conversations around cybersecurity. When you say, I'm integrating with this, or I need to install an application to collect data over here or plug in.
When you talk to the teams, like on the IT side, you [00:33:00] need to tell them how secure it is. You need to sell them on the security of the application. The facilities manager does care about this. Because it's still in their realm of work and they probably had to sit through some cyber security training. But you need to have that conversation with the tech teams early.
Because, you know, we haven't had anyone say no. Which is great. But we've had to have some very detailed meetings around the security of an application. With people way smarter than me on both sides. For them to say yes. So, have those conversations early so you can start collecting that data sooner. And,
James Dice: with you guys having so many different types of customers, right, so you've talked about museums, I know you guys have healthcare, probably K 12, fire ed, you probably have the full gamut, how do you guys approach that?
Because all of those different types of buildings and different types of organizations are going to handle their I. T. and their processes around I. T. and cybersecurity differently. How do you approach that as a vendor? [00:34:00] It's all
Richard Davis: about how you communicate,
James Dice: right? So, luckily, our application provider partner,
Richard Davis: Facilio, has very good documentation that gets a lot of the technical stuff out of the way, right?
So you need to communicate out as best as you can through email. You need to set up a meeting. with the people responsible for making the decision about installing a component instead of just trying to hash through details, uh, on an email thread. So I'd say send the documentation, schedule a meeting, have the conversations with the right people in the room, on your side as well as the customer's side.
Once you get through that first meeting, it's usually a go ahead after that. Totally, yeah,
James Dice: that matches my experience as well. Just being able to say exactly what you need and what you're gonna do is kind of the first battle.
Richard Davis: Yeah, gone is the world where I could say, Hey, can you just download this real quick so I can collect data?
Uh, it's much, much more complicated than that now.
James Dice: Alright, what about, what haven't we covered that you would tell someone that's just starting down this [00:35:00] path? Or if you can think about telling yourself. A year ago or two years ago, what have we covered that you would tell that person?
Richard Davis: You know, I would look at this in one of two ways.
I would say, um, if you can slow down a little bit, um, do your due diligence. Do your homework. Get your strategy together before you go out and solution, uh, a software vendor or partner, right? Make sure you have problems
James Dice: in search of a solution instead of a solution in search of
Richard Davis: problems. Get your business needs aligned.
Once you have that ready to go, Take your time evaluating partners, not just in their current state, but their future state. We picked
James Dice: a partner facility out because
Richard Davis: we know where they're going and we're aligned. So just be clear on your alignment on what's important to you and what's important to them.
So the last one I'd say is. You're talking a lot of buzzwords, right? You're using data analytics and fault detection diagnostics. You need to cut through all that jargon that people hear too much about and figure out a clear communication on [00:36:00] why this is important to you and why this is important to your customers or your facilities team.
All right? So you really need to distill it down to its basic, most basic functions, and then buzzword check yourself to make sure you don't sound too marketing or Gimmicky. I love it. That's
James Dice: very on brand for us, so thank you for adding that in at the end. I didn't, I didn't pay him to say that. Everyone
Um, but yeah, cut the fluff out there. Everybody,
Richard Davis: you know how many
James Dice: emails I read, James, like
Richard Davis: everyone that say the exact same thing on it and, and I'm on the other side, I'm saying, well, I definitely don't want to communicate it or market it that way because I'm not reading this past the subject line . So I'm not saying you need click bait in marketing stuff here, but.
You need to really think about what's important.
James Dice: Yeah. Especially with the audience that you're talking to, right? People that are procuring mechanical and control services, right? Those are facility managers. Those are, you know. Technicians, those are people that don't have time for all any of that shit.
Richard Davis: Yeah, and they will tell you, very [00:37:00] bluntly, they don't have time for any of that.
James Dice: Totally. Well, thanks for coming on the show, Richard. Uh, anything else to, to close us off? No,
Richard Davis: James. I think this was a good conversation. I appreciate you having me here.
James Dice: All right. Thanks again.
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